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View Full Version : Why so many directory sites?


maarten
09-13-2004, 12:03 AM
There really is only one live palace directory that processes live info.

I think its important newcomers should be told about this and how to sign up. I hope people who make new directory sites will include this info as well. Of course any new Palace site is good for the community as long as we make sure people can find all the info.

If you don't link to the Palacetools directory your creating a problem. By breaking up the central place we have for finding servers your your taking away the only structure we have to find each other.

Making more of the same instead of making what is there better is something you do for yourself, fine great! That is afterall why we go online and create our own piece of heaven. BUT you should also link up with the Palacetools directory.

Hidalgo
09-17-2004, 11:28 AM
I dunno what you really want by writing this but I think in a way your right. But lets not forget that for a group of people, probably people like you, the fun is making a website and not the social part.

The "community" as we knew it from the days Palace was something you had to pay for fell apart and turned into a giant ego-fest 4 years ago when then PDG group decided to screw each other.

That is life I guess, Palace will never be anything more then some god-complex tool for people with no control over their real life situation. So what do you expect from these peopel? That they join you or actually contribute to someone elses site? I doubt that wil ever happen, its not why they entered this EGOd world.

jon_k
06-18-2005, 04:13 AM
I dunno what you really want by writing this but I think in a way your right. But lets not forget that for a group of people, probably people like you, the fun is making a website and not the social part.

The "community" as we knew it from the days Palace was something you had to pay for fell apart and turned into a giant ego-fest 4 years ago when then PDG group decided to screw each other.

That is life I guess, Palace will never be anything more then some god-complex tool for people with no control over their real life situation. So what do you expect from these peopel? That they join you or actually contribute to someone elses site? I doubt that wil ever happen, its not why they entered this EGOd world.

Well, their directory script is ancient and could REALLY use a revamp of how it works. I've offered to help them in such a project but surprise! I got NO reply!

Seems like Palacetools neither cares nor is interested enough in the community anymore to accept the offer.

Ashame too, as we could have made a very sleek engine and a bunch of new features that the current cgi scripts don't have. Even the layout of the directory is bad, we could have really helped that out too.

The sad part is... the entire site hasn't been updated in years it seems. I wish they'd allow people to help the site out... but they simply don't care anymore.

Thats why other people are joining in I believe. When the central resource stops updating -- people stop going.

Janus
06-18-2005, 09:48 AM
All of the servers of palace connect to a central IP Address which PalaceTools.com owns. Their website layout is really all that needs updating, but that'll never happen as Jon says.

maarten
06-18-2005, 12:36 PM
True, I definately agree and its sad to see so little happens when so many things are possible. My motto has always been: Never take control over a community resource unless your:

A: Willing and able to keep it up to date
B: Ready to share it with others if they have a better idea

That is why everything on Palacplanet is open for comment, input and ugrades or complete replacements. It is how I ran the few events I did run: Everybody gets the keys to the castle so they can do whatever they do at 100% without anyone deciding what is best for them. And you know what? These where the coolest most creative events I was ever part of, nobody was in control we all shared the responsebility. It was the end result that mattered.

Sure it means you need to trust others but if you can't why be involved in community stuff right?

But I also still believe that we should stick to the current live directory as long as there is no serious alternative. Websites with lists of servers are nice but spreading info across multiple directories splits up the community even more.

Personally I think anything that upgrades or updates a Palace need is great but I also know from Palace Planet experience many volunteers join. Plans are made but less then 1 out of 40 actually contributes for more then a few weeks. So many walk away without a word it is hard to plan big projects because you never know who to rely on. Just look at how long it took to get a decent Palace compatible client: Almost 5 years and its still without Iptscrae.

anyway......

Janus
06-18-2005, 12:54 PM
Yeah, and look how many idiots donated money into Phalanx only to have a lemon produced? The damn thing eats up far too much RAM/CPU, mostly because VB is a layer executed above the normal program level like Java is. And look how slow Java runs in any OS, some better than others but, definately not the speed of C/C++ apps! And yes, it STILL doesn't support Iptscrae. Hell if I were one of the people who donated to BHLabs I'd ask for a refund PRONTO!

Don't give me any of that Palace32 uses 100% CPU bull... Palace32 only raises my load averages about 0.6 to 0.8 where as CrossOver Office (another commercial version of WINE) can barely run even the simplest of VB applications like a window that just sits there idle with no network activity HA!

Plus VB isn't cross-platform - proprietary!

Ideas and source code credits are NOT given their proper dues, which is mostly supportive of plagorism! I don't believe I saw 'Arad' in the credits for writing the code behind that toolbar Phalanx commonly used for so long!

Oh yeah, some savior there! *vomits*

maarten
06-18-2005, 06:26 PM
Not sure about any of that VB stuff. I hate VB and anything that smells like VB is turned of on my PC. The only Palace client alternative I tried was Palacechat on Mac OSX and that worked pretty wel. It looks cool and the only thing missing is IptScrae and a way to position the log window :P

Might try the server on my Mac somewhere this week see whats up wiff dat.

Janus
06-18-2005, 07:09 PM
PalaceChat was coded in Real Basic, which by apperance maybe nothing more than another VB/Java/Python (software layer above the C/C++/ASM level). I might be wrong however... Real Basic might actually be compiled below and optimized more into the actual 'machine level'. You can't really say something that uses libraries either is bad news. Libraries are basically a really handy way to not have to include the same machine code into every program you write, for if that machine code is in 1 central place, it can be referred to time and time again. Libraries in central locations are a 'good' thing, and almost every piece of software worth using that interacts with the system on a big scale (networking/GUI/etc.), uses a library here or there. But it's when you stray further and further away from the hardware, and stack layer upon layer of code, until that top most layer is so far away from the CORE of the system that things really bogg down and suck. That's why VB/Java for sure, tend to perform so poorly regardless the OS you're on. As long as the application which you design has to be 'interpreted' by some other engine, instead of being on the machine code level that the CPU understands, your program is always going to have strikes against it! PERIOD! As a developer and scientist myself, I understand that there's good sides to interpreted languages, the ease of the language, perhaps it's closer to the native langauge you speak! As a developer though, you can't simply say 'one language' is better than another overall, VB is easier to a newbie yes, but as we all know, 'taking the easy way out' isn't always the best course of action no? Looking back now I would've traded my VB experiences without question for more time using C/C++.

I believe the human brain wasn't designed for 'easy steps'. I believe that our minds have 'evolved' into something so wonderfully complex, that a challenge is always good for those creative centers. For the more complex of a task you accomplish, is it not that much more self-estiem boosting? Self-estiem is infact a fine way to be motivated to learn, and I can understand where starting simple can boost people in those areas. There's ways a language can infact do more harm than good howerver. VB from a quick glance tries to teach you that a 'program' revolves around a 'GUI window'. Not really though... A program can be used to define life if you think about it. What is a program? A 'program' is an endless loop! A loop that is constantly trying to take on an objective, as long as the loop keeps going and going and going, it'll remain that way forever. Given that the program doesn't encounter an error along the way, much like the human body encounters break downs from age because cells don't reproduce as well as they did in previous generations. But this could simply be a direct by-product of something in our DNA programming althogether. And if a better program could be written to better renew the system as a whole as raw materials (food) are taken in, the system would in theory go on indefinately! Thus that loop is endless! And upon our death, that loop halts... Looking at life from a VB perspective - WTF DOES A GUI HAVE TO DO WITH LIFE?! What drives that GUI however, that's relative!

jon_k
06-19-2005, 05:28 AM
True, I definately agree and its sad to see so little happens when so many things are possible. My motto has always been: Never take control over a community resource unless your:

A: Willing and able to keep it up to date
B: Ready to share it with others if they have a better idea
I agree completley with you. Unfortunately, some people make websites like this just so they can have power. I don't know about Palacetools.com and why they aren't interested in our help, but I can speak from expierience from palaceplugins.com.

Joe from AP runs PalacePlugins. He has only included 1 plugin of ours on the page after 2+ weeks of me harping on him to do it. In the end, he made an ultimatum that we had to upgrade one of our (unsupported plugins) so he could use it on his palace in trade for being linked. When you have to "barter" with someone to just get 1 of your products listed that's a bad sign. He say's it's so much work.. and I told him then he should give the domain to somebody else.

He also said he will NOT give us the source code to plugall to continue development on it. We said fine, and now we're working on our own version of plugall (called plugit) that will include many of the features we think Plugall is lacking. Guess what? He's threatoned legal action (later pulled out though) and has said he won't link to it on his page no matter what.

I feel really alienated by him, and also by Glide from the practice.chatserve.com page. Joe has talked to glide, and after that talk glide seems uncaring about our plugins too.

It really makes you want to drop Palace, and leave the community altogether. When the two largest websites won't link to your products, which you've worked hard on without making a "deal" or "trade" or "bartering" it changes you. I've gained a very cynical view of the Palace community from these expieriences, and we often take long breaks in our projects now.

Why? Why not? Not like we have a deadline when only smaller sites link to us. Palaceplanet is the largest website that links to our projects, and PalacePlanets a small tight knit community compared to Joe's or Glides.

It's discusting when you think about it. I thought Joe and Glide wanted to help the community, but they seem to just like to squat over it and maintain a powerful position. Only let projects be "blessed" by them when they see fit. Very un community-like and goes a whole lot against the Free/Open Source Software spirit.

I don't know much about glide, other than the communication I've had with glide through Joe. I haven't been able to ever get replies if I E-Mail him directly. Makes me feel like he doesn't even want to talk to me. NOT very community like!

OH, that brings another quirk with joe, he hates how our plugins are open source, and says that is one of the reasons he doesn't link to us. I'm sorry, but us releasing the source to our plugins isn't negotiable. We believe in the spirit of everything being free and available for others. If we get hit by a train tomarrow -- we like the thought that someone else could pick our plugins/projects up where we left off. I'm sure you can understand our mentality. Joe and others can't though.


Sure it means you need to trust others but if you can't why be involved in community stuff right?
Especially if we've prooven ourselves with the projects we've produced at our website: palacecommunity.com


But I also still believe that we should stick to the current live directory as long as there is no serious alternative.
Yeah, but someone should seriously have a talk with the maintainers about letting someone re-write their script and the interface. I've failed to get replys from them, after many E-Mails. Seems like they don't check the mail anymore, so that is unlikley at best.

I'd love to become a maintainer of the PalaceTools webpage. I think I could bring vitality and life to it. I have the time to keep it updated, and the expierience required. Janus has the skills needed to update the database and bring new features to the live directory.

I wish more of the big-player sites were more open to letting anyone contribute, but they aren't, unfortunately.

complexity
06-19-2005, 08:14 PM
It really makes you want to drop Palace, and leave the community altogether. When the two largest websites won't link to your products, which you've worked hard on without making a "deal" or "trade" or "bartering" it changes you. I've gained a very cynical view of the Palace community from these expieriences, and we often take long breaks in our projects now.

Why? Why not? Not like we have a deadline when only smaller sites link to us. Palaceplanet is the largest website that links to our projects, and PalacePlanets a small tight knit community compared to Joe's or Glides.

It's discusting when you think about it. I thought Joe and Glide wanted to help the community, but they seem to just like to squat over it and maintain a powerful position. Only let projects be "blessed" by them when they see fit. Very un community-like and goes a whole lot against the Free/Open Source Software spirit.

That is so sad...Very discouraging.

Janus
06-20-2005, 12:09 AM
I concur with that...

The Free Software moment is about GIVING! And Joe only seems to want to 'give' when it'll boost his image. He'll 'give' updates to plugins he pays for, only because he knows people will download them. But he seems more interested in plugins he paid for than an free software community such as ours that wants to make plugins to if not better, COMPLIMENT his existing plugins! But because it won't boost his image 'alone', oh well?!

He's already given me some issues about 'Guardian', how it makes GateKeeper Pro and HostKeeper, both of which he paid for, 'obsolete'. That's what software is all about people! Sharing and Evolution! If somebody wants to write a better version of something like Guardian with or without our source code MORE POWER TO THEM! But don't hate us just because we did make something better.

Bill Frantz has made it clear through his absence that he's pretty much moved on. There's hardly any money left in Palace unless you're a popular community or host as of 5 years ago. Although making plugins did earn him some good cash, it's not a constant cash flow unless you're doing it everyday. According to Joe he's already gotten work doing something with a constant cash flow, and there's nothing wrong with that. So then... why is Joe against us making plugit? Plugall isn't going anywhere anytime soon apparently. And hell, if Joe doesn't have to pay for plugit, wouldn't that make it more with his efforts to 'copy & paste' existing HTML, the to modify it to link to plugit?

It pisses me off Joe has only linked to 1 of our plugins, but he's linked to ALL of Martyn's plugins. Not all of which are paid for - if my information is accurate. Not that I have anything against Martyn either, I just think it's selfish that Joe doesn't think the true spirit of Linux is a 'good thing'. Maybe he should stop using Linux on his Palace hosts too - since he apparently can't stand 'free software'.

jon_k
06-20-2005, 07:16 AM
Well let me point out Joe's logic here.

Joe has paid tons of money for something we've made and released for free. I can see why he's pissed off... but he's mad at the wrong guy.

This would be like if he paid 100,000,000,000,000 dollars for a sports car that was cool and did a lot of stuff. Then if we came around and made a car JUST LIKE HIS, but had more features, could go faster, and more and gave it out for free too.

I'd be pissed too, blowing away a fortune for a car only to have someone make a car just like mine -- but triple the features! You're damn right I'd be pissed.

The weird part is though; I'd be pissed at the people who ripped me a new asshole by selling me a car for a fortune. NOT at the people who sold the exact same car (but better) for free.

This is joes logic, he hates the guys who produced a better sports car for free. Not the guy who ripped him off by selling him a sports car with less features (like he should be)

His logic is flawed, none the less -- we're being screwed for it. He won't link to our plugins or mention us anywhere. Meanwhile the guy who ripped him up the butt for the expensive sportscar (Martyn) gets a new link for every new plugin he makes within a week on Joe's site.

Flawed logic, but non the less Joe's logic. Sad he has a large hand around community. I'm just pissed off because ThePalace.com will only link to practice.chatserve.com --- and practice.chatserve.com will only link to Joe's plugins page not even add a link to ours (http://www.palacecommunity.com/plugins)

SO HOW DO WE GET OUR LINK?!?!?!?!?
I thought these damn websites were established to HELP the community, not selectivly link who they want and then say "Ooops, sorry!" to the rest.

Great community we're in, isn't it?
What ever happen to that PALACE SOLIDARITY, LINK 4 LIFE crap, when CC died?

http://www.palacetools.com/images/l4l_oval.gif
This philosophy must have went down the craphole when they (joe and the others) took over the community (Image from palacetools.com)

That image symbolized everyone was suppose to link to everyone else to keep the community going, after CC's bankrupsy. That feeling of community seems gone now though. That feeling of cooperation is down the outside, old news. Dead philosophy it seems.

Joe must have got the definition of SOLIDARITY, mixed up with Solitude!

Here's a KMA to you joe! :oops:

jon_k
06-20-2005, 07:44 AM
To followup on my post, when CC died, I thought all was lost. NO more updates, no new features. Palace is dead. Give it up.

Then Access Internet Communications (Chatserve was merged w/ them at the time) had a meeting. There was a room of about 700 people in that Palace, everyone around the corners of the room. We all discussed how to take things from now... how to get off the ground.

Tandika went and said he'd work on PALACETOOLS.COM and that it would be a central hub linking to everything else, and that everyone should be link. He said no matter what you can do, if you contribute you can get linked.

That meeting fed me a source of hope -- like we could work without CC. That feeling has long been lost from me. That spirit and philosophy started in that room so many years ago has been abandoned.

Now everyone says, I'll start my own community, suck up as many users as I can -- and not link to anyone else. I'll start a Palace, get ads on google and bundle my own client up with no bookmarks and set the start palace to my palace. Then nobody will know other palaces exist.

That is the mentality people have now.

Or I'll run a community website like palaceplugins.com and I'll get it to become the "official" plugins page for palace. Then I'll only link to plugins that I paid to have made, and F*** anyone else who has made plugins.

Thats the kind of mentality we're dealing with now

The mentality that was in that room with 700 users bundled around the edges setting fourth a set of standards to get by and keep Palace running is gone.

Only a very few websites that get a small trickle of users still have the old philosophy I once knew. This being one of them. Too bad palaceplanet.net isn't considered "THE OFFICIAL" page for anything, and that it's just a community website.

Maybe thats why this site is such a good place, because Maartin was at that meeting they had when CC died. Remember it maartin? I'm sure I remember that flag of yours... so you must have been. Of course, I was only 16 at the time.

maarten
06-20-2005, 08:42 AM
Couple of small details: Tandika is a woman, a very funny smart one. But like so many Palace people who burn bright she burned out and dropped the entire Palacetools/directory taking the source code with her.

A new group had to rebuild the directory as quickly as possible.

Sure I remember the meeting, I never had so much fun on a Palace. Sitting there with Alissa making bad beer jokes, making fun of all the bullshit PH was talking. Palaceplanet had been up and running for a couple of months already and just before the Palace crash I was promoting it. To support Palacetools I dropped Palaceplanet for half a year and helped out with Palacetools.

It was a pretty good time for Palace, we all came together with a common goal. For fun I made the Reginald Code Wake, we held a wake for the reg code generator and buried it in the slabs. Later with my bestests Palace buddies I made another event called the Soli da'ar ectry event to promote the new directory. This was just a scream a full out war against CC in a spoof mansion.

With Palace developement rooms where they where trying to re-invent the wheel and all that. It was cool, everybody got to do what they did best and we had a blast building it and running it. According to some they pissed their pants laughing.

Why people keep control? My guess is continuity, it is very hard to find anyone who will keep a site running for 5 years. Joe obviously has Palace as a source of income and uses the plugins to promote his hosting. I think it is not a great idea trying to figure out why someone does anything.

Look at Palaceplanet, I was suppose to make a french Palace client 8 months ago and just never got around to it.

Who knows, all we can do is lead by example and do the right thing hoping others might follow. All I can do is try to make this the best site and the people who are looking for a cool and open community site will find it and use it.

As for not being official: There are no official Palace sites. The company closed it is up to the users to decide where they go now. So if you think Palaceplanet is the one: Promote it :)

Actually Palaceplant does get a lot of support from good people: Webdog put a direct link on the frontpage of thepalace.com and Glide made a link to the upgrader. Without their support this site would be just a unknown wannabe Palace site. Especially Glides support in the past before thepalace.com was back in business made Palace Planet what it is.

Actually about a year ago Palaceplanet got more hits then thepalace and palacetools combined. With over 110.000 hits a month, not sure why this dropped again. Guess its time to update the site and make it even cooler.

and its maarten not martin with two aa's :)

maarten
06-20-2005, 08:49 AM
Before I forget, here are two nice old fun links:

http://palaceplanet.net/wake/

http://palaceplanet.net/solidarity/

And pictures of the meetings can be found in the gallery, including pics of the Solidarity event and many more Palace fun stuff from way back.

Look in the Palace events album. Have fun :)

Shadow99
06-20-2005, 10:26 AM
wow this is a hot subject forum thing.. idk wut these r called -.- but i better post here cuz alot of ppl did!..............................
I FEEL SO INVOLVED!!

Janus
06-20-2005, 08:49 PM
I think it's good trying to figure anything out, even people. If people just take what other people say at 'face value' without researching it for themselves... then you usually end up with people who don't really know anything at all. Knowledge is a tool, and learning is a privilege, USE IT! MAKE THE MOST OF IT!

Perhaps Joe would be more persuaded or inclined to change if people stopped talking it up the ass from him and abandoned his servers altogether. For his mind is truly that of a businessman - where your only passion in life is for money/greed/power!

The love of liberty is the love of others; the love of power is the love of ourselves. - William Hazlitt

I recommend that everybody everywhere take the time to read up on GNU.org's webpages. Anything and everything on that site deals with ways to pretty much increase your freedoms, with some sacrifice none the less. However, the only sacrifice in freedom is 'control'. That's what the people in this US don't seem to understand. Freedom/Control are opposite sides of a coin! You can't have both! Protection is not without some kind of restriction, and restriction is not without some kind of control! And freedom is what you have when there is NO CONTROL but the laws that it is bound by to keep it FREE.

The things I've read on GNU.org are so wonderfully stated, it often reminds me of poetry...

Shadow99
06-20-2005, 09:47 PM
-posts again- :D

Janus
06-21-2005, 05:39 AM
So is your attention span the width of your posts relative to the width of the font on the page?

jon_k
06-21-2005, 05:48 AM
I've noticed I've been calling you maartin. Bah thats stupid of me, sorry, maarten ;]

Never knew tandika was a woman. It sucks she didn't release the source of the project to everyone; it's what I woulda done!

I surely wish Glide would link to our stuff... or joe... or anyone! PalacePlanet is just not enough!

Anyways, hopefully one of the "big player" sites will.

complexity
06-21-2005, 07:25 AM
damn maart looks like you had some real good times back then. No wonder you cant stand getting on anymore. That grammy source bot. Lol. Looked like a great event.

Shadow99
06-21-2005, 07:45 AM
umm... idk if its attention.. or if i just like to post... maybe both?

Janus
06-21-2005, 07:51 AM
I know this is a public forum, but, a majority of your posts in 'technical' topics like the XP helper one with the overheating CPU show a mentality of a child about the age of 3 or less. '-posts again-' uhhh wtf?!

jon_k
06-21-2005, 08:03 AM
umm... idk if its attention.. or if i just like to post... maybe both?

It wastes time and bandwidth (aka money) and also makes the MySQL database larger. Bumping topics to raise your "post count" is a stupid thing to do and isn't very thoughtful of the fluidity of the boards.

Shadow99
06-21-2005, 08:07 AM
ummm... i'm sry?